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	<title>Comments for Repentant Carnivores</title>
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	<link>http://carnivores.bigbible.org</link>
	<description>eating less meat : more life for others</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 16 Sep 2011 02:43:58 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Chocolate muffins (non-Vegan) by Fairtrade: Coffee, Chocolate &#38; Bananas - Sansblogue</title>
		<link>http://carnivores.bigbible.org/recipes/chocolate-muffins-non-vegan/comment-page-1/#comment-3152</link>
		<dc:creator>Fairtrade: Coffee, Chocolate &#38; Bananas - Sansblogue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Sep 2011 02:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carnivores.bigbible.org/?p=173#comment-3152</guid>
		<description>[...] I posted a recipe for some nice Chocolate Muffins (which are actually a sort of moist and juicy cross between muffins and brownies, but that&#039;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I posted a recipe for some nice Chocolate Muffins (which are actually a sort of moist and juicy cross between muffins and brownies, but that&#039;s [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Chocolate muffins (non-Vegan) by Heather</title>
		<link>http://carnivores.bigbible.org/recipes/chocolate-muffins-non-vegan/comment-page-1/#comment-3139</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 07:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carnivores.bigbible.org/?p=173#comment-3139</guid>
		<description>Wow!  You must move in very different Christian circles from me!  I know relatively few Christians who think that such buying decisions have anything to do with their faith (even Christians who are very aware of and concerned about the Majority World) and I&#039;m always on the look-out to try and show people why I think they do.

Keep harrassing your Pak N Save about the chocolate - our local Pak N Save stocks the &#039;Scarborough Fair&#039; stuff, so yours should be able to get it through their usual supply channels.  Unfortunately, Scarborough Fair chocolate isn&#039;t tempered all that well, so it&#039;s not very good if you want to melt it and then use it to coat things.  It&#039;s fine for everything else, though - eating, chocolate chips, fondue etc. - and has a nice smooth texture in the mouth.  Also, Trade Aid has an online shop, so everyone can buy cocoa, chocolate etc. from them even if they don&#039;t have a local shop.  Their chocolate is really nice (especially the coffee flavoured one) and tempered beautifully.  They do add about $6.50 for postage when you order online, but I tend to do one or two bulk orders a year anyway so it&#039;s not too bad.

And re. Fair Trade coffee vs. chocolate, my understanding is that coffee farmers tend to be smallholders who don&#039;t employ anyone outside of their immediate family, whereas cocoa is farmed on larger plantations with many workers.  That means that all it takes to give the people who grow our coffee a chance at a decent life is paying them enough money to really live on, whereas for cocoa a significant amount of the crop willl still be grown slaves no matter what the crop is sold for unless the plantation adheres to Fair Trade rules.  For bananas (also available at our local Pak N Save) the issues are more to do with worker safety (e.g.  the workers having access to protective clothing when they spray pesticides) and them not being coerced into doing things that will render them infertile etc..

I like to think of Fair Trade as meaning &#039;produced by people who were paid a minimum wage and worked in conditions that weren&#039;t wildly detrimental to their health&#039;.  In NZ, such conditions are enforced by the State, but in these countries where the State doesn&#039;t do that we consumers can play that role for our brothers and sisters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow!  You must move in very different Christian circles from me!  I know relatively few Christians who think that such buying decisions have anything to do with their faith (even Christians who are very aware of and concerned about the Majority World) and I&#8217;m always on the look-out to try and show people why I think they do.</p>
<p>Keep harrassing your Pak N Save about the chocolate &#8211; our local Pak N Save stocks the &#8216;Scarborough Fair&#8217; stuff, so yours should be able to get it through their usual supply channels.  Unfortunately, Scarborough Fair chocolate isn&#8217;t tempered all that well, so it&#8217;s not very good if you want to melt it and then use it to coat things.  It&#8217;s fine for everything else, though &#8211; eating, chocolate chips, fondue etc. &#8211; and has a nice smooth texture in the mouth.  Also, Trade Aid has an online shop, so everyone can buy cocoa, chocolate etc. from them even if they don&#8217;t have a local shop.  Their chocolate is really nice (especially the coffee flavoured one) and tempered beautifully.  They do add about $6.50 for postage when you order online, but I tend to do one or two bulk orders a year anyway so it&#8217;s not too bad.</p>
<p>And re. Fair Trade coffee vs. chocolate, my understanding is that coffee farmers tend to be smallholders who don&#8217;t employ anyone outside of their immediate family, whereas cocoa is farmed on larger plantations with many workers.  That means that all it takes to give the people who grow our coffee a chance at a decent life is paying them enough money to really live on, whereas for cocoa a significant amount of the crop willl still be grown slaves no matter what the crop is sold for unless the plantation adheres to Fair Trade rules.  For bananas (also available at our local Pak N Save) the issues are more to do with worker safety (e.g.  the workers having access to protective clothing when they spray pesticides) and them not being coerced into doing things that will render them infertile etc..</p>
<p>I like to think of Fair Trade as meaning &#8216;produced by people who were paid a minimum wage and worked in conditions that weren&#8217;t wildly detrimental to their health&#8217;.  In NZ, such conditions are enforced by the State, but in these countries where the State doesn&#8217;t do that we consumers can play that role for our brothers and sisters.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Chocolate muffins (non-Vegan) by Tim Bulkeley</title>
		<link>http://carnivores.bigbible.org/recipes/chocolate-muffins-non-vegan/comment-page-1/#comment-3122</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Bulkeley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2011 23:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carnivores.bigbible.org/?p=173#comment-3122</guid>
		<description>Oh, yes! I just assumed that people would (at least try to) use Fair Trade, if anything as you suggest the issues are bigger for chocolate than coffee. (I have trouble getting Fair Trade at the supermarket, and am waging a one man compaign on Facebook, where I am a friend of Pak and Save to nudge them into stocking it, Facebook is a great place for such activism as supermarkets want us to &quot;like&quot; them, but that allows us to post on their walls :) maybe I should post on my blog about that as I have not seen as much Facebook activism in this area as I&#039;d expect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, yes! I just assumed that people would (at least try to) use Fair Trade, if anything as you suggest the issues are bigger for chocolate than coffee. (I have trouble getting Fair Trade at the supermarket, and am waging a one man compaign on Facebook, where I am a friend of Pak and Save to nudge them into stocking it, Facebook is a great place for such activism as supermarkets want us to &#8220;like&#8221; them, but that allows us to post on their walls <img src='http://carnivores.bigbible.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  maybe I should post on my blog about that as I have not seen as much Facebook activism in this area as I&#8217;d expect.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Chocolate muffins (non-Vegan) by Heather</title>
		<link>http://carnivores.bigbible.org/recipes/chocolate-muffins-non-vegan/comment-page-1/#comment-3121</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carnivores.bigbible.org/?p=173#comment-3121</guid>
		<description>Should repentant carnivores also only use Fair Trade chcolate?  I know it&#039;s a different ethical issue, but it&#039;s one that I believe the Western church really needs to take seriously.  Like eating too much meat, eating non-Fair Trade cocoa is a way of eating that prevents people in the Majority world from having enough to get by.  I was going to write about why I believe this in this comment, but it got too long so I&#039;ve put it on my own blog here:

http://martinheather.blogspot.com/2011/09/political-violence-in-ivory-coast.html

Cheers,

--Heather :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Should repentant carnivores also only use Fair Trade chcolate?  I know it&#8217;s a different ethical issue, but it&#8217;s one that I believe the Western church really needs to take seriously.  Like eating too much meat, eating non-Fair Trade cocoa is a way of eating that prevents people in the Majority world from having enough to get by.  I was going to write about why I believe this in this comment, but it got too long so I&#8217;ve put it on my own blog here:</p>
<p><a href="http://martinheather.blogspot.com/2011/09/political-violence-in-ivory-coast.html" rel="nofollow">http://martinheather.blogspot.com/2011/09/political-violence-in-ivory-coast.html</a></p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>&#8211;Heather <img src='http://carnivores.bigbible.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Stockpot (tip from a real chef) by Mushroom risotto &#187; Repentant Carnivores</title>
		<link>http://carnivores.bigbible.org/tips/stockpot-tip-from-a-real-chef/comment-page-1/#comment-2800</link>
		<dc:creator>Mushroom risotto &#187; Repentant Carnivores</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2011 18:56:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carnivores.bigbible.org/?p=12#comment-2800</guid>
		<description>[...] for cheapness and variety) 350g arborio rice 150ml white wine preferably dry 1+ litres hot vege stock 3 Tbsp chopped fresh parsley 2 Tbsp chives, spring onions or fennel a little more oil, Avocado is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for cheapness and variety) 350g arborio rice 150ml white wine preferably dry 1+ litres hot vege stock 3 Tbsp chopped fresh parsley 2 Tbsp chives, spring onions or fennel a little more oil, Avocado is [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on A repentant carnivore looks forward to a visit from the home-kill guy by Tim Bulkeley</title>
		<link>http://carnivores.bigbible.org/philosophy-and-reasoning/a-repentant-carnivore-looks-forward-to-a-visit-from-the-home-kill-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-1297</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Bulkeley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Apr 2011 07:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carnivores.bigbible.org/?p=151#comment-1297</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure it is currently less efficient than it will be, one paddock needs recovering (it was used as a storage area before) and the orchard won&#039;t begin cropping till next autumn (and then only a little at first). We are not using chemicals, and the vegetables are much more efficient than sheep at converting land to food (though the vege patch is also growing in future, we have started small). 
In one way our place will never be as efficient, it will always require more hours of work to produce a kilo of meat, because we don&#039;t use lots of chemicals and fertiliser (we may need to use some fertiliser, but not on the veges, the compost heaps and chicken dung eill more than cover them and the orchard). But one tank of roundup means the commercial farmer saves many hours of work - I actually enjoy weeding the paddocks, and it is much more &quot;efficient&quot; than going to the gym like many people do ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure it is currently less efficient than it will be, one paddock needs recovering (it was used as a storage area before) and the orchard won&#8217;t begin cropping till next autumn (and then only a little at first). We are not using chemicals, and the vegetables are much more efficient than sheep at converting land to food (though the vege patch is also growing in future, we have started small).<br />
In one way our place will never be as efficient, it will always require more hours of work to produce a kilo of meat, because we don&#8217;t use lots of chemicals and fertiliser (we may need to use some fertiliser, but not on the veges, the compost heaps and chicken dung eill more than cover them and the orchard). But one tank of roundup means the commercial farmer saves many hours of work &#8211; I actually enjoy weeding the paddocks, and it is much more &#8220;efficient&#8221; than going to the gym like many people do <img src='http://carnivores.bigbible.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on A repentant carnivore looks forward to a visit from the home-kill guy by Heather</title>
		<link>http://carnivores.bigbible.org/philosophy-and-reasoning/a-repentant-carnivore-looks-forward-to-a-visit-from-the-home-kill-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-1296</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Apr 2011 07:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carnivores.bigbible.org/?p=151#comment-1296</guid>
		<description>Indeed, everything that I said is contingent on you being an inefficient user of the land!  I define this mostly as producing less protein per hectare, but you could also define it as producing fewer calories per hectare.  I have no idea how your actual lifestyle block rates on this scale.  However, while there has been little research in NZ about the productivity (in any terms) of lifestyle blocks, but what there has been does suggest that blocks smaller than 3 hectares are rarely as productive as those in larger farms.  I haven&#039;t found any info about bigger lifestyle blocks.  So, while you are right that smaller blocks *can* be more productive than larger ones, but it seems that NZ lifestyle blocks often aren&#039;t (although the data is weak).  The way to make that small piece of land super-productive is to devote the same amount of effort on it that you would on a larger piece of land - doing things like mixed cropping, companion planting, chook tractors, closed loops of nutrients etc.

I simply assumed that you were what I imagine as the &#039;typical&#039; lifestyle block owner/farmer: spending most of your time on your city job, so unable to put in all the work it would take to make the land even as productive as before, let alone as productive as it could be.  But I could well be wrong, and I expect that I will be at least &#039;less right&#039; as time goes on and your food garden etc. gets more established and productive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, everything that I said is contingent on you being an inefficient user of the land!  I define this mostly as producing less protein per hectare, but you could also define it as producing fewer calories per hectare.  I have no idea how your actual lifestyle block rates on this scale.  However, while there has been little research in NZ about the productivity (in any terms) of lifestyle blocks, but what there has been does suggest that blocks smaller than 3 hectares are rarely as productive as those in larger farms.  I haven&#8217;t found any info about bigger lifestyle blocks.  So, while you are right that smaller blocks *can* be more productive than larger ones, but it seems that NZ lifestyle blocks often aren&#8217;t (although the data is weak).  The way to make that small piece of land super-productive is to devote the same amount of effort on it that you would on a larger piece of land &#8211; doing things like mixed cropping, companion planting, chook tractors, closed loops of nutrients etc.</p>
<p>I simply assumed that you were what I imagine as the &#8216;typical&#8217; lifestyle block owner/farmer: spending most of your time on your city job, so unable to put in all the work it would take to make the land even as productive as before, let alone as productive as it could be.  But I could well be wrong, and I expect that I will be at least &#8216;less right&#8217; as time goes on and your food garden etc. gets more established and productive.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A repentant carnivore looks forward to a visit from the home-kill guy by Tim Bulkeley</title>
		<link>http://carnivores.bigbible.org/philosophy-and-reasoning/a-repentant-carnivore-looks-forward-to-a-visit-from-the-home-kill-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-1295</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Bulkeley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Apr 2011 05:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carnivores.bigbible.org/?p=151#comment-1295</guid>
		<description>Hmm... lots to think about. I did not want to respond quickly, but then realised that with a heap of marking if I don&#039;t respond now I am likely to forget to do so... 

I&#039;m not quite sure I am convinced because:
- I believe I read that smaller units tend to be more productive, as smaller paddocks get used more efficiently certainly the old farm has more thistles etc. (except just after they have sprayed large quantities of expensive chemicals) we weed by hand and have got most of the thistles out so only small ones are coming on leaving more room for grass (at least that&#039;s what we are trying to achieve!
- When the land grew sheep it did not grow potatoes, veges or fruit whereas we are growing more and more of these things.
- It will be feeding other people, whanau, friends and the church foodbank so I am only convinced by your last point in so far as the  earlier ones could be established... 
So as far I&#039;m concerned currently I think the main impact that the change of lifestyle has on my Repentant Carnivore status is to make me more aware of where the meat comes from, rather than changing the whole &quot;equation&quot;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm&#8230; lots to think about. I did not want to respond quickly, but then realised that with a heap of marking if I don&#8217;t respond now I am likely to forget to do so&#8230; </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not quite sure I am convinced because:<br />
- I believe I read that smaller units tend to be more productive, as smaller paddocks get used more efficiently certainly the old farm has more thistles etc. (except just after they have sprayed large quantities of expensive chemicals) we weed by hand and have got most of the thistles out so only small ones are coming on leaving more room for grass (at least that&#8217;s what we are trying to achieve!<br />
- When the land grew sheep it did not grow potatoes, veges or fruit whereas we are growing more and more of these things.<br />
- It will be feeding other people, whanau, friends and the church foodbank so I am only convinced by your last point in so far as the  earlier ones could be established&#8230;<br />
So as far I&#8217;m concerned currently I think the main impact that the change of lifestyle has on my Repentant Carnivore status is to make me more aware of where the meat comes from, rather than changing the whole &#8220;equation&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on A repentant carnivore looks forward to a visit from the home-kill guy by Heather</title>
		<link>http://carnivores.bigbible.org/philosophy-and-reasoning/a-repentant-carnivore-looks-forward-to-a-visit-from-the-home-kill-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-1294</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Apr 2011 04:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carnivores.bigbible.org/?p=151#comment-1294</guid>
		<description>I hear you re. the smaller carbon footprint from eating the beef more or less where it was killed.  And I hear your slavering, too!  We have recently been the grateful recipients for several pieces of &#039;Claribel&#039; (a beef cow) as well as fish from a friend&#039;s catch.

However, my understanding was that the primary reason you felt you needed to repent, was that your diet was using up lots of land, meaning that poor people had to make do with much less land&#039;s worth of food.  If anything, I feel that on these grounds your home-kill beef should be eaten *even more* sparingly than that which is commercially farmed.  Why?  Because it&#039;s taken even more land to grow than regular free-range beef.

I can&#039;t remember how big your lifestyle block is, but I bet the sheep that formerly ran on it produced more protein per hectare than your four steers do!  So, supposing for argument&#039;s sake that the land is now producing 3 times less protein than it would if commercially farmed, you need to add in two *extra* vegan meals for every beef meal you eat.

I hope you have a big chest freezer!  Otherwise, I guess you could make your local food bank even more happy than you originally intended...

Anything else seems to be disregarding the amount of land that you have effectively taken out of food production by farming it inefficiently - land which is no longer available to feed other people as before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear you re. the smaller carbon footprint from eating the beef more or less where it was killed.  And I hear your slavering, too!  We have recently been the grateful recipients for several pieces of &#8216;Claribel&#8217; (a beef cow) as well as fish from a friend&#8217;s catch.</p>
<p>However, my understanding was that the primary reason you felt you needed to repent, was that your diet was using up lots of land, meaning that poor people had to make do with much less land&#8217;s worth of food.  If anything, I feel that on these grounds your home-kill beef should be eaten *even more* sparingly than that which is commercially farmed.  Why?  Because it&#8217;s taken even more land to grow than regular free-range beef.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t remember how big your lifestyle block is, but I bet the sheep that formerly ran on it produced more protein per hectare than your four steers do!  So, supposing for argument&#8217;s sake that the land is now producing 3 times less protein than it would if commercially farmed, you need to add in two *extra* vegan meals for every beef meal you eat.</p>
<p>I hope you have a big chest freezer!  Otherwise, I guess you could make your local food bank even more happy than you originally intended&#8230;</p>
<p>Anything else seems to be disregarding the amount of land that you have effectively taken out of food production by farming it inefficiently &#8211; land which is no longer available to feed other people as before.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Mushroom and Barley by Tim</title>
		<link>http://carnivores.bigbible.org/competition/mushroom-and-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-1292</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Apr 2011 17:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carnivores.bigbible.org/?p=78#comment-1292</guid>
		<description>Yes, winter&#039;s on its way, so I must start making this again ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, winter&#8217;s on its way, so I must start making this again <img src='http://carnivores.bigbible.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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